VERY IMPORTANT DISCUSSION OF GITA
8 CHAPTER 16 SHLOKA
(*** see the sloka at the end)
Q: You heard this question maybe thousands of times; one of the most striking descriptions You give in Your commentaries to Bhagavad Gita regarding the state right after death, after leaving the body: You describing the symptoms and conditions; I have to ask You – was it relevant to Your state of Samadhi experience?
Guruji: I became aware of it first time went into Samadhi
Q: sometimes when people die and they are exposed to long oxygen deprivation, they experienced similar states; You feel that You detaching from the body…
Q: …but You still have very strong sense of self?
Guruji: that remains, yes
Q: I have to ask timewise: You gave the description already after Your state of Samadhi became regular?
Guruji: yes, the second phase started and I have gone through few months of that, maybe more; – then I gave this description. I thought it was needed in Gita
Q: absolutely! It gives the profound explanation, what each one of us – yogi or non-yogi will experience when his soul is withdrawn from the envelope. I have to ask another thing here: how long this condition lasted: whether it became tolerable or it’s recurrent condition every time?
Guruji: it happens every time and then you become used to it. Only after you’re becoming used to it you start to appreciate the fineness of it and begin to be aware of a different aspect of it. Suddenly, few times you will understand – the sound and the light
Q: I know this is an intellectual exercise – trying to understand that – but I think we will have the glimpses of how the process goes
Guruji: this is the very serious thing, because everybody is going to face it some day
Q: it’s understandable, why it settles the state of panic: you’re leaving your shelter
Guruji: that’s true. Whole life we have feeling of our being real and suddenly we are out of it, where is no body: that creates big panic
Q: You described the biggest problem for the spirit is an absence of house – place, they can call home; is it the samskara of the lost body?
Guruji: I think so, yes
Q: You also described the fear, which You experienced several times, till settle after the series of samadhi?
Q: why every time travelling from body to body the fear is still there?
Guruji: if fear is not there – everybody would love to leave the body and jump into the astral. So its instinct is special.
Q: I don’t understand that: why would they like to leave the body and jump into the astral if the samskara of possessing the property and that is valuable real estate? As we know, everything happens because of the real estate?
Guruji: every child would like to run away from the school.
Guruji: you need to learn, and teacher is there to reprimand, to discipline you: nobody loves it.
Q: so this fear, if it’s on physiological level, or on a mental level?
Guruji: it is body’s mechanism for security.
Q: once it’s withdrawn from the body, you already there: and still no recognition of the sound and the light?
Guruji: no, for this you need to go through yoga: you will not remember your previous experience. Because nobody tries to acquire it!
Q: we want to erase this completely?
Guruji: it is always erased , because we try to avoid everything what we fear.
Q: so the fear will have to bring you back to the body?
Guruji: no. Somebody up there, they are more knowledgeable, they will assess your karma and they will plan and they have time for you; they will erase the memory and resend you back. The memory is specially erased.
Q: basically You describing two possibilities: you have to acknowledge and recognised that you’re part of that; then after sometime again this recognition have to appear? And then you have a chance to merge with this?
Guruji: you have the chance to merge; otherwise – again, by your reaction: another destiny is waiting.
Q: based on that reaction?
Guruji: always, it is all our reactions. Your destiny is waiting: multiple destinies are.
Q: only because of mostly all of the souls turning away in fear, but destinies are different: the fear is the same – destinies are different?
Guruji: you see, when person is running away from something in fear, he is most likely to injure himself. Because he lost his balance of mind and he is so afraid – he doesn’t know what to do and what not to do. Most of the people I see: they injured themselves out of their own fear. So fear is the biggest hinderance of everything.
Q: this is as repetitive pattern: return to the new body based on decision; but repetitive patterns are also hurtful: if you live life after life, sometime making same mistakes?
Guruji: it continues till you somehow come to some senses. In a good company you begin to realise that there is something greater than your fear of death. So the churning goes on, perpetual action.
Q: and then the cookie crumbles
Guruji: I like this: when the camel is trying to sit down – nobody knows on which side he will sit. This is about life.
So-called enlighten beings: if the die at the age of 80 years, 90 years: what wisdom they have missed?
Q: probably they missed the experience of living without karmas – if they prolonged?
Guruji: they missed a wisdom of living for a thousands years, how it will feel? That means we cannot call them enlighten. The new thought came to live.
8 CHAPTER 16 SHLOKA
Oh Arjuna! All the worlds including Brahma-Loka are reiterative, but, oh Kounteya! There is no rebirth after attaining Me.
Exposition – All souls in this universe are reborn again and again until they know the essence of the indestructible Brahman, the consciousness of Time. Having known it once, the soul no longer accepts birth and is not limited to the body.
Further, especially for people who have not practiced yoga and have not been able to cognize the dazzling radiance of Time, a description of some states that follow shortly after death is given. If an ordinary person, knowing about these conditions, will be able to maintain fearlessness at the time of death, he will also be freed from the bonds of birth.
At the moment of death, when breathing slows down, at the same time as the fear of death, a feeling of lightness arises. When the heart stops, a very strong feeling of dizziness appears, and sounds similar to whistling, rumble or ringing bells are heard. At this time, the consciousness of the dying person leaves the body. Depending on the individual level of spirituality, a sense of dizziness can last from several moments to three -four days.
During the period when consciousness leaves the physical body, a person receives a short-term experience of perceiving the great radiance of Time. Without having such an experience in the past, ordinary people are frightened. This short-term experience is similar to if a person who was locked in a dark room for a long time, and suddenly brought out into bright sunlight. If this experience does not confuse a person and he remembers that it was this great Radiance that created his physical body, as well as the whole world, then a person has a chance to merge with It. If, at the sight of this terrible radiance, an person is frightened and tries to hide from it, then the radiance will immediately disappear, and the person will find himself outside of body. At this time, his consciousness, having lost the support of the body, experiences a feeling of emptiness. Until this moment, a person does not realize that he has died. He sees his loved ones, tries to talk to them, but no one hears him.
All his attempts are fruitless. Looking at the funeral ceremony and a last rights held over his body, he gradually begins to realize that he has already died. In this moment, and sometimes earlier, he sees the Supreme Radiance again. This time, the Radiance resembles a pure flickering light in the form of a huge dazzling golden circle with a center of dark blue color. It is a direct vision of the consciousness of the Void. Looking at this great Light, a dead person hears the sounds of “Anahadaa nada” coming from the center of the circle.
These sounds similar to the roar of thunder which is coming simultaneously from a thousand clouds. If a person is not frightened and can maintain a firm conviction: “This is my form. It was this radiance that manifested my consciousness,” – then he will be able to connect with the Radiance and free himself from the agonizing obligation of being born again. Those who are frightened by this experience are sent to heaven or hell, according to their level of consciousness. They remain in bonds that force them to be born again and again. Yogis acquire this experience during their lifetime, being in a physical body, so they are not afraid of death. Through death, the yogi is united with the Light of all light, the radiance of Time.
KHECHARI MUDRA – PARAMETER OF KRIYA
Banamali Lahiri suggested to me to set the parameter of khechari.
Q: he suggested You to document it and to have the scientifical proof? Only for You it was suggested?
Guruji: the Guru should have it, yes. No- it was suggested to everybody who is claiming to be Kriya yogi. There are even big organisations without having this. It created a shock allover the Kriya yogis. They are all aware of it. Yogananda’s group, so many self-claimed Gurus: many of so-called Kriya yoga Guru was inspired by Yogananda’s success and everybody was claiming that they know it. They are dressing nicely and saying the sweet things without no connection of the lineage. Maybe for that B.Lahiri said me to set the parameter: if you’re claiming yourself a Kriya yog- at least you should have it. Still I’m only one who set it. And we discovered so many things with that MRI: Om inside and Babaji’s face there.
Q: the Yogananda’s society here in India- they don’t indicate khechari?
Guruji: absolutely! Nowhere such discussions like we have happen. Nowhere such deep discussions of technical aspects- there is the point.
Q: there are no teachers to give these technics?
Guruji: but the organisation stand in the name of Kriya yoga.
Q: organisations are created to make money
Guruji: they are doing it! But when they start to use the word Kriya yoga and some people will ask – show us khechari: how they will show?
Q: You mentioned few times that Your teacher was saying to the students, to You: never start organisation?
Guruji: he said it to me and the others and it is specifically mentioned in the “Autobiography of the yogi”, that Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya was absolutely against creating any organisation. And we see, what happened with it after a long time- whether it is Kriya yoga organisation or religious one. Among Nath yogis there was a discipline between Guru and disciple- that’s it! Power game will come, you will need money, then you will go out to find credits and so on…
Q: that’s like in a story when the hermit had a cow, then he will need the cat who will catch the mice in his cave.
Guruji: maybe like this. And also: creating an organisation maybe like a creating an empire. Another psychological thing here is: when you become a member of organisation you start to believing unknowingly that you will never surpass the standards of the founder of this organisation. You will always just follow. Here in India- specially in North India: if you’re defeated by your son or by your disciple- this is the best thing which can happen. And there- you will just continue to follow.
Q: I haven’t seen anyone surpassing You so far
Guruji: I hope it will come. Otherwise what is the use of teachings?
Q: well, You have incredibly reach human material
Guruji: I haven’t seen any organisation discussing on technical aspects of the practice: they will just say- don’t worry about because it’s secret thing. But I think it was very needed and very important.
Q: You said You have siesta after lunch when You were in ashram; what interesting will be with us if we have the same schedule?
Guruji: post lunch siesta was compulsory! Your brain will be dormant and you will have no intelligent questions after that.
Q: how Swamiji react when You said about the wrong teachings?
Guruji: just remain silent. And keep looking the other side when I’m crossing his way. Because inside they are also aware. I think if you know- you must give the answer. If you don’t know- say that you don’t know.
Q: usually deceivers believes in own lie
Guruji: All their life depends on lie- and that is another problem. In Yogananda’s books- some truth is there: Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya was absolutely against taking sannyasa and they were against creating any organisation. But in Yogananda’s case we see- he went against these direct instructions. Among different sadhus and yoga masters no one discuss so openly on technical aspects. They will say: you’re not ready for these teachings. Here we are ready to discuss on every aspect, whatever comes to mind. Otherwise what is the use of Guru and disciple relationship if Guru is not ready to communicate? If the right question is there- when why not? And if I don’t know the answer- we can think together. Whatever we discuss for so many years – I’ve never heard any conversation anywhere.
Q: everywhere in the net is just giving lectures- but nobody discuss
Guruji: yes, she named the book perfectly: “Upanishad of immortality”- upanishad means question and answer between the Guru and disciple or a certain rishi and some seeker: that is called Upanishad.
Q: but now, if you are in spiritual business, you need to develop your product?
Guruji: I think it’s a temporary fashion, it will pass
Q: is it any contradiction between giving to people what they want and at the same time…
Guruji: I’m not against it: but only thing is if you’re using the word Kriya yoga, which Babji gave.
I simply could not down my standard to my circumstances: they have to come up to the standard.
Another my favourite: I’ve always live beyond my means: let’s hope finally my means will change for better.
One man asked: what is the limit of Your budget? I said- because I have no income, so my budget has no limit. Whatever comes- I spend. If nothing comes- I don’t spend. Why I spend? Main principle in Patanjali’s Yoga Darshan is aparigraha- no savings. That’s why I’m able to sleep at the night.
GANDHARVAS, ASHWINS and MARUTAS
Q: Once, when I told you about one of my friends, who lived in India for a long time, described the interaction with one Guru- tantric: he invoked a spirit – and strange beings appeared with the horse heads – and You smiled and said quietly: they were gandharva.
Guruji: Yes, gandharvas.
Q: There are so many creatures listed in the Gita: aswinas, marutas, gandharvas, other celestial creatures …
Guruji: Yes, they are all celestial beings
Q: Could you please describe, for example, what marutas are?
Guruji: Marutas are 49 types of vayu, which roam in outer space. We experience only 1 type of air here – but they are 48 more: solar winds and others. Vayu is roaming in 49 different directions.
Q: So, Maruta ganas are..
Guruji: 49 in number: they are all over the Universe.
Q: Have you seen all of them?
Guruji: Some of them: some are too far away. Some of them can’t tolerate being close to Earth; and maybe Earth can’t tolerate their presence; so they are moving in outer space. I’ve seen some of them.
Q: What about ashwin?
Guruji: Ashwini Kumars? Those celestial doctors? But now they exist in the forms of Nakul and Sahadev, two Pandavas. They are not in heaven any more.
Q: Do gandharvas live in a special world?
Guruji: In gandharva loka; and two special gandharvas are continuously singing for Vishnu – they have horses’ heads.
Guruji: for his entertainment(laughing)
Q: Maybe they sang very badly in their previous lives?
Guruji: (laughing) probably – if they sing for Vishnu; and their names are described in the books, amazing names: Haha and Huhu. They have horses’ heads. Many of Shiva ganas also have insect and animal heads… Some tantrics say that it is much easier to contact a gandharva, than a ghost.
Q: Because they are quite talkative?
Guruji: Very talkative and they crave attention: nobody cares for them. Who is worshiping them now?
Q: Some musicians probably still have some connection with them?
Guruji: Maybe gandharvas are incarnating as musicians – it is a big possibility.
Q: As known singers?
Guruji: Especially big singers: it’s not easy to sing.
Q: Any other interesting astral experiences? How do the ghosts out there react to the presence of the mortal?
Guruji: they are very respectful: because no ordinary person can access different dimensions. I think they all knew me.
Q: Is there any type of testing or any type of probing of your abilities and powers there?
Guruji: Some of them try to rag you initially, when you’re appearing there for the first time; after that they realize your power and don’t bother you. But they may play some games, in good nature. They are very playful and you must have a good sense of humor.
Q: A lot of your disciples see You in the dreams, in different states, during meditation; and when they tell you about these dreams or occurrence of some event during the meditation, you say – yes, well, interesting; what did I wear? In some cases you’re aware, in some not aware of such astral contact?
Guruji: I’m aware, most of the time.
Q: So there is no escape for us?
Guruji: (laughing) Big Brother is watching you. But usually it happens when the disciple is thinking intensely about me or he’s in some fix, and wants some solution – then I come.
Q: Another thing: every time when a new person comes, you, of course, notice the age, the form and the gender; but you said that first of all you see the spirit – it is the spirit who comes to learn?
Guruji: Yes. Mostly – yes.
Q: It comes to greet you and sometimes to ask for the initiation?
Guruji: That is true.
Q: You are also saying: one look is enough to determine who the person is?
Guruji: Usually so.
Q: Looking at us, you see the aura, the tendencies, certain diseases?
Guruji: I stop seeing that. When you start seeing these things – you become unnecessary judgemental. I don’t want to be judgemental: if someone is coming in good faith – I value and respect their privacy, I never peek inside much. Initially – of course, I was doing it.
Q: However, you sometimes could tell the person’s fate…
Guruji: Sometimes it just happens without my control, yes.
Q: We value these precious moments. Can you see that some of the disciples have short lives? In the case of Mataji…
Guruji: In her case it was known from the very beginning. But sometimes- yes. Some – yes. But we all have shrort lives. As such, I like to treat everybody well. When my sister was here, I never stopped her from doing anything she wanted,I went alone with her wishes. Whatever she want; she was always ready to help anyone.
Q: Phrasing it in big words: every soul is here to live according to the dharma and complete the program for that particular lifetime?
Guruji: Yes. Our teaching is: to understand which karmas you did, so as a result of those karmas you’re having now a certain situation; and by developing yourself you can overcome that situation and create very good karmas – so the result will be very good. That is the main essence of the teaching.
Q: Different karmal have different results; may I ask if these are long term or short term karma?
Guruji: Anytime karma.
Q: Are they happening in this lifetime or in the next lifetime?
Guruji: When you will begin to understand the law of karma, you will be in a situation to manipulate your own kahrma: so you may have desired results. That is a very big understanding and power!
Q: Are You helping people to realize the karmas not only through yoga by giving other, particular hints?
Guruji: I’m giving them in many discussions and through extraordinary ideas – it is part of that. When I was in school I read Chanakya, he’s the best, I will tell you. You must read Chanakya! What he said is: If the creator is giving us only the results of our karmas – so why should I offer my pranam to Him? I will offer my respect to my karmas! It’s a big statement.
So, by understanding karma and its result we will develop ourselves to the level that we made karma to have NO result. It’s a very unique situation – no longer you are in a vicious circle of action and reaction, you are free from that.
Everyone was trying to get some grace from the creator: mythology and religions are full of such samples. But with the help of this yoga we will realize what are the results of our karmas: no more, no less. So use your karmas wisely; first develop your mind and become wise: then you’re free to do anything, whatever you want.
Q: It takes time, Guruji…
Guruji: Always! Time is the greatest Guru. It is a fantastic situation! My favorite statement: if you do bad karma – you will get bad results, if you do good karma – good results will come: so do a romantic karma: so romantic results will come!
Q: So basically we all left in the same class for another year; and then again for another year…
Guruji: At least he is achieving stability: he remains in one place! This is quite positive for the person.
ANCIENT SPIRIT, RELIGION and GODS
Q: Guruji, it seems like the spirit was born first, before even gods came into being?
Q: In a hierarchy of things can we say that gods are products of creation?
Guruji: gods also take birth in the stream of time and disappear again back into the stream of time.
Q: But spirit prevails?
Guruji: spirit is just a drop of time.
Q: So who is more ancient: the spirit as per say or the certain gods?
Guruji: the spirit: even gods are the spirit. even gods have spirits.
Q: Regarding the religious beliefs and the slow transformation of the whole cultural landscapes like we say the religions were by products of monarchy or vice versa – their time came and they’re about to live; what do we view yoga as? Shiva Ji is the first Guru of yoga and he is still a divine force?
Guruji: from the primordial times, and from the vedic time only yogis were treating everybody as equal. But in all religions so much discrimination of classes and castes took place… I will say that every religion was born at the time of monarchies: so only yoga fits the times of democracy.
Q: Modern people practice yoga and consider it a non- religious thing: however if you don’t respect the Guru, who gave you these teachings – you’re not practicing at all?
Guruji: I disagree with them absolutely. Yoga is the part of Hindu philosophy, one of the six philosophies which hindu is given – Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mimamsa, and Vedanta. So Yoga will always remain part of the Hindu tradition. No matter how you sell it, saying that Yoga is an international knowledge – originally it is from India. And the tradition of the Guru and disciple discipline will continue. If you have no respect for the Guru – you will have no respect for the teachings also.
Q: So it can’t be uprooted and it can’t be said: we’re learning only that portion without exploring all the other parts of the teachings?
Guruji: No. This is how they are peddling yoga in the west.
Q: This approach is popular today.
Guruji: But they are not sincere seekers – they just want to lose some weight or improve health or to do some physical training: that is enough for them.
Q: I know it’s a rude assumption – but can we still call yoga the religious following then?
Guruji: There is a difference between dharma and the word “religion”: any organized system of beliefs is called religion; but in India we say -it is an eternal way, or sanatan dharma, a continuous process of exploring the truth and expressing it in many different ways. In Hinduism so-called religion does not depend on one single organization. it’s open for discussion, open to explore new – and it is open to so many things. but as long as we keep to our roots, keep watering them – we will continue to grow in many different ways.
Q: I think the same question was asked in the movie about yoga and tradition and it was a very important interview.
Guruji: Yes, yoga goes a very long way and in a very mysterious way.
Q: So does one have to be Shivait to practice?
Guruji: No. Again: my family god is Shiva – but I’m not a Shivait. That’s the beauty here!
Q: But you worship Shiva Ji every night…
Guruji: No, I’m not a Shivait: it comes very natural to me, because He is the first Guru and He is the family god. In India there are many different clans and every clan has a family god.
Q: So who is a Shivait?
Guruji: Someone who is initiated to Shaivism by certain lineage.
Q: You’re taking the official approach here: the initiation into the lineage required?
Guruji: Into the cult. When you are initiated to any cult – after some time it becomes culture.
Q: Here comes less convenient question: if spirits were born even before gods, and came into existence before them, what about ShivaJi?
Guruji: Nobody knows, He is the supreme spirit, Parameshwar. Books do not say from where He appeared – He just came out of nowhere.
Q: and still prefers remain on Earth
Guruji: because – different body parts of Sati fell on Earth. He came down out of love. this is the first love story we came across in any literature or in any religion.
THE LONGEST SAMADHI
Q: When Sa Kriya samadhi started You described it in details; but I never heard you describing – and I know You experimented – the longest state of the suspended animation You experienced?
Guruji: It happened on my farm – I think probably in December 1991 or January 1992, just before we started Gita commentary. It was maybe 7,5 hour: but it took me quite a long time to recover from it.
Q: I would like to ask You about the recovery process?
Guruji: Next day I was just lying there and my disciple came to cook; I was so feeling high that I did not even talk much. Then mudgars came to my help and I started to move mudgars and recovered.
So I made it a compulsory program to do exercise every day: that is the only remedy which will open your eyes. The longest I have been in suspended animation is 7,5 hours. And I’ve noticed, that even if you go to suspended animation for 10 minutes, 15 minutes or 7 hours – the result is more or less the same, I mean the spiritual result. But the body suffers more, this I realized later.
Q: Was it the willful decision to stay for so long?
Guruji: It was a willful decision. And it is a very simple thing: I think everybody could do that. When you’re going to sleep – you could make the mental command: I will wake up at 4 o’clock – and you will wake up at 4 o’clock. So it comes from the mind. If you go into suspended animation – you will naturally come back within 1,5 hour. It looks like a standard time for that. No command, nothing – and you will come back from it in 1,5 hour. I think that is a standard cycle – and we should follow it and agree to it.
Q: Is there a certain regulating mechanism inside of the body, which keeps it in samadhi for 1,5 hours?
Guruji: yes, and after 7,5 hours the body system, especially the digestion system, takes about 2 days to come back to normal. If it stays in suspended animation only for 1,.5 hours – then it remains normal. That is another observation, which came to my notice.
Q: Is it a safety measure?
Guruji: Yes, an inner safety mechanism.
Q: While remaining for 7 hours in this state did You keep extending it – like saying “remain, remain,” or “ I’ll stay longer”?
Guruji: No, when I went into it – I gave a mental command to come out of it after this much time. And I realized – it was not exactly a very intelligent thing to do – because the whole system went down after that.
Q: because the blood circulation was interrupted?
Guruji: Because of interruption of the blood circulation the digestive system also became suspended – so whatever has been eaten remained unprocessed..
Q: And what about the breathing process?
Guruji: When you will come out of it – breathing will be 1 or 2 breaths for a minute, no more than that.
Q: And when You’re in Samadhi?
Guruji: N breathe, absolutely zero breathing.
Q: So, the oxygen does not enter the system?
Guruji: No, that’s why the digestive system dries.
Q: What about the blood circulation – how long did it take to restore after 7 hours?
Guruji: I think more than 1 hour. And that tingling sensation was overwhelming again: when the blood starts to flow you feel in your every pore, as if some spring fountain is coming up and that is overpowering. But it’s almost the same after 1,5 hours of Samadhi. After that I decided that nature’s way is the best: so 1,5 hours of suspended animation is the optimal. Nothing goes wrong in the body, everything remains in working condition after Samadhi, but even with that interval of time some physical exercises are needed daily. It happened almost 31 years ago.
Q: You said when You recovered from the state of suspended animation the breathing was very slow – maybe the 1 or 2 in a minute: for how long?
Guruji: it lasted almost whole day. The heartbeat was also less than 40 – maybe 37 or so. I’m particular about these things. When you’re going into 1,5 hours of samadhi regularly – first it drops from 47 to 50 and it remains like that.
Q: and it remains through the day?
Guruji: especially in the night time; in daytime also less than 60.
Q: You said that the spiritual effect of the suspended animation was the same – whether it was 1,5 hours or 7?
Guruji: yes. 1,5 hours doesn’t do anything to your system – metabolic or anything; but 7,5 hours – troubled. It took me 2-3 days to recover from that.
Q: but the satisfaction, if we mean the spiritual state afterwards?
Guruji: more or less it is the same, only physically you’re very drouthy after that and those physical symptoms which other will take as a very different thing. But inside you know – it is more or less same.
Q: sometimes You say that answers coming to You in a state of suspended animation?
Q: You have to focus on the question?
Guruji: no, it just comes. Even now – I mean I’m not doing anything but sometime things just come.
Q: is it coming is a wave – like a slow wave or like a sudden punch?
Guruji: we can call it a wave and a sudden punch
Q: so it’s not like a sudden burst of realisation?
Guruji: we can also call it – sudden burst of the realisation also. All mixed. I’ve been discussing, answering questions, and to my surprise sometimes I listen to my own answers which I did. Different principles are working.